The Red Dragon

[Penrhos1920]

When did the Red Dragon get Mark 1 dining coaches? The summer 1959 formation is 13 coaches, 11 of which are Mk1 and a pair of ex GWR dining coaches (Second Dining Saloon and Kitchen First)

When was it hauled (Cardiff to Paddington) by Castle, Britannia or Kings?

The reason for asking is that it has occurred to me that it might be possible to model the Red Dragon with out needing to build a kit. Bachmann have made most Mk1 coaches in chocolate and cream, Hornby do a Castle and Britannia and DJM are bringing out a King.

[Penrhos1920]

Thanks Noel its the photo on the cover of "The Heyday of Steam in South Wales" that made me think about the Red Dragon. Unfortunately I never got to travel on mainline steam.

I've found 10 pictures of the Red Dragon:

70022 Tornado 09/04/1958 SWML Pt1
70028 Royal Scot 02/05/1959 SWML Pt2
5099 Compton Castle 06/02/1960 SWML Pt1
5099 Compton Castle 14/05/1960 SWML Pt2
92220 Evening Star 27/06/1960 SWML Pt2
4080 Powderham Castle 17/08/1960 SWML Pt1
6003 King George IV -/9/1960 Heyday
70024 Vulcan -/04/1961 SWML Pt1
6023 King Edward II 22/04/1961 SWML Pt1
6018 King Henry V 30/03/1962 SWML Pt1

Regarding the Mk1 dining pair I found this on RMWeb:

Red Dragon did not get its BR design dining pair [W301+W1009] until the end of 1961

W301 was one of 5 WR Restaurant Firsts. They were mainly a large kitchen cars with 3 bays of first class dining. W1009 was one of one 5 WR Restaurant Second Opens. They were had 48 seats in 8 bays. However the bad news is that neither have been produced by Bachmann and no one has done brass coach sides either. So it's back to the drawing board to look for a different South Wales express that had chocolate and cream Mk1s that have all been produced by Bachmann (they have only made RU and RFO).

[Menelaus]

...it's back to the drawing board to look for a different South Wales express that had chocolate and cream Mk1s

By coincidence there was a recent thread via the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo Group the gist of which read...

Re: South Wales Chocolate Cream Dining Cars late 50s & early 60s

"There were 3 named South Wales expresses that were in chocolate and cream livery. The Red Dragon had a Kitchen First and Second Dining Saloon which were initally ex GWR stock. In the summer 1959 Coach Programme they are both shown to have gangway adaptors. In 1961/2 they were changed to Mk1s, W301 a Restaurant Firsts and W1009 a Restaurant Second.

Both the Pembroke Coast Express and Capitals United had single "Dining Cars". As the summer 1959 Coach Programme does not mention gangway adaptors I assume that they were Mk1s. Were they RBs or RUs? Adjacent to the dining cars where Open Second. Were these used for dining?"

"Photos show they were Mark I RU in both cases. The production RB hadn't appeared in 1959. When the Mark I RU cars entered service on the WR, several trains had the second next to the kitchen end changed to an open second. I believe this was so they could be used as semi-diners, eg the non-toilet end with 16 non-smoking seats could be used as such as I think the RU was all smoking originally. More bays could be laid in the open second if necessary and some photos and film from the 1960s show half of the carriage with table cloths. The WR open seconds were 2+2 64-seat ones so the dining must have been a bit cramped."

[stephebm]

To return to the locos; I believe Castles were used on the Red Dragon (my earliest memory at 6 or 7 years of age in 1949 or 50 is a well cleaned and oiled 5054 Earl of Ducie passing me as I climbed the stairs to platform level P2) , up to the mass transfer of Brits to Canton then 70025 Western Star was a frequent engine on the Red Dragon. Later Cardiff Canton WAS allocated Kings - my memory which I have NOT confirmed is 2. These replaced Brits when they moved. I remember being appalled one day when I was sitting in the Outdoor Mech and Elec "bothy" under the Canton water tower and watching a King spinning its driveling wheels on exiting the shed and adjacent to me (light engine!). Very undignified and not at all characteristic.


Basil