GWR Newport to Merthyr passenger service

[Penrhos1920]

Another interesting fact were the 3 trains per day from Newport to Merthyr over 5 separate railway companies for a 30 mile journey averaging 80 minutes.
GW Newport to Bassaleg Jct (2m 62ch)
B&MR to Caerphilly South
RR to Penrhos Jct
A(N&SW)D&R to south of Pontypridd Station
Taff Vale for the remaining 11¾ miles to Merthyr except two short sections each of about half a mile long;
GW&TV Jt Brandy Bridge Jct to Mardy Jct and
GW Mardy Jct to Merthyr High Street

A few years ago I following up a lead that the GWR ran a Newport to Merthyr passenger service. A friend of a friend gave me this different information:

I have a Summer 1911 local programme for Newport to Pontypridd (TV) trains:
GWR formation
4 wheel brake third
One five-bodied third and one 4-wheel first (five bodied third probably means 5 compt third)
4 wheel brake third

Trains
7.25 Newport to Pontypridd
8.35 Pontypridd to Newport
9.40 Newport to Pontypridd (2 extra thirds on Sats)
11.30 Pontypridd to Newport (2 extra thirds on Sats)
12/42 Newport to Caerleon
1/30 Caerleon to Newport
3/0 Newport to Pontypridd (2 extra thirds on Sats)
4/20 Pontypridd to Newport (2 extra thirds on Sats)
7/5 Newport to Pontypridd (2 extra thirds on Sats)
8/35 Pontypridd to Newport (2 extra thirds on Sats)

These four trains each way are shown in the 1910 Public TT, and also in the 1915 STT (with only minor differences), via Machen and Caerphilly (RR) to Pontypridd(TV). There are no details of any through B&M (or other) trains between the two (Newport & Merthyr) towns over this section, only of B&M between Newport and Machen; Rhymney between Machen and Caerphilly; and Alexandra Dock steam railmotors between Caerphilly and Pontypridd.t

Looking at the above coach working programme there might just be time for the 9.40 Newport train to get all the way to Merthyr and back to Pontypridd to form the 11.30, but it would be very tight.

[Rhobat Bryn]

I'm curious about the Newport to Merthyr service as it affects the 1920 map on the Circle website. What is the source of the information for this service?

There also appears to be a lack of clarity regarding which services ran between Pontypridd and Newport and when. I'm quoting from H Morgan's South Wales Branch Lines:

"In 1917 the GWR withdrew the PC&NR Newport-Pontypridd passenger trains as an economy measure. This service had consisted of four trains a day, calling at Caerphilly only on route over the PC&NR after leaving Machen. The ADR extended its own trips to Machen to compensate - this service superseding the Rhymney Railwa's railmotor between Caerphilly and Machen, which the Rhymney Railway withdrew entirely from 5 May 1919. The GWR reintroduced the through trains in 1923 extending them to Merthyr."

This is the situation as reflected in the map.

R.W. Kidner however states that:

The through trains from Newport to Pontypridd called only at Caerphilly, but from 1904 the Alexandra Docks company put on a local service with two steam railcars and erected a number of halts, mostly at rail level.
...

In 1917, as a War economy measure the through trains were taken off, and as the cars did not normally work through to Machen, the Rhymney Railway provided a Caerphilly-Machen service, though it had no statutory powers to do so. These continued until 5th May 1919, by which time the through GWR trains from Newport to Pontypridd had been restored.

Can anyone shed any light on this contradiction and, more importantly, cite any sources to support one version or the other?

[andrewnummelin]

I'm curious about the Newport to ...

There also appears to be a lack of clarity regarding which services ran between Pontypridd and Newport and when...

I've also been curious about this for a long time.
At the AGM I picked up a box of old copies of the Railway Magazine and by chance last night I read a bit about this subject.
Vol. XLV no. 267 Sept 1919 in Hopwood's article on the A(N&SW)D&R on page 164
quote
1917.- G.W.R. tempoararily withdraws Pontypridd-Newport passenger service and A.D.&R. extends its Pontypridd-Caerphilly service to Machen in connection with Newport trains of B.&M.R.
unquote

There was no mention of RR services. Interestingly however there was also this:
quote
The last time we travelled on the line, the train consisted of a Great Western four-wheeler and an Alexandra bogie coach. The latter used to belong to Messrs. Barnum & Bailey...
Unquote
So stock usage may not have been always what one would have expected.

[Rhobat Bryn]

Your first quote confirms Morgan's position.

Your second quote is dated September 1919 by which time, according to Kidner, the GWR service should have been running by then; yet there is no mention of it.

With regards your point about the rolling stock, Kidner has this to say:

"One of the cars (i.e. steam railcars) was withdrawn in 1910, and a railmotor set made up from a 0-4-2T purchased from the GWR and a former Barnum & Bailey Circus saloon, one of three on its books. Three four-wheelers from the Mersey Railway were also run for workmen."

Does the article make any mention about the engine useed on the train?

[andrewnummelin]

Does the article make any mention about the engine used on the train?

No. 14 was mentioned as being for the passenger service but it was not specifically mentioned as being on the train concerned.

Could someone have mistaken an ex Mersey coach for a GW one?

[Penrhos1920]

Does the article make any mention about the engine used on the train?

No. 14 was mentioned as being for the passenger service but it was not specifically mentioned as being on the train concerned.

Could someone have mistaken an ex Mersey coach for a GW one?

Possibly. Both the 4 wheel Mersey stock which the ANDR had from 1904 and some GWR 4 wheel stock had round topped doors. I had hoped to not have to research the ex Mersey stock which Mountford says was withdrawn by about 1920.

Mountford says nothing of a post war GWR Newport to Pontypridd/Merthyr and only mentions the ANDR Caerphilly to Pontypridd Tram Rd.

[Rhobat Bryn]

On the basis of all the comments made so far, it seems to me that its Kidner that has his dates wrong. I'm inclined to think that our map accurately reflects the service as was. It makes sense that the GWR took the service over at the grouping.

[RichardMaund]

Another interesting fact were the 3 trains per day from Newport to Merthyr over 5 separate railway companies for a 30 mile journey averaging 80 minutes.
GW Newport to Bassaleg Jct (2m 62ch)
B&MR to Caerphilly South
RR to Penrhos Jct
A(N&SW)D&R to south of Pontypridd Station
Taff Vale for the remaining 11¾ miles to Merthyr except two short sections each of about half a mile long;
GW&TV Jt Brandy Bridge Jct to Mardy Jct and
GW Mardy Jct to Merthyr High Street

A few years ago I following up a lead that the GWR ran a Newport to Merthyr passenger service. A friend of a friend gave me this different information:

I have a Summer 1911 local programme for Newport to Pontypridd (TV) trains:
GWR formation
4 wheel brake third
One five-bodied third and one 4-wheel first (five bodied third probably means 5 compt third)
4 wheel brake third

Trains
7.25 Newport to Pontypridd
8.35 Pontypridd to Newport
9.40 Newport to Pontypridd (2 extra thirds on Sats)
11.30 Pontypridd to Newport (2 extra thirds on Sats)
12/42 Newport to Caerleon
1/30 Caerleon to Newport
3/0 Newport to Pontypridd (2 extra thirds on Sats)
4/20 Pontypridd to Newport (2 extra thirds on Sats)
7/5 Newport to Pontypridd (2 extra thirds on Sats)
8/35 Pontypridd to Newport (2 extra thirds on Sats)

These four trains each way are shown in the 1910 Public TT, and also in the 1915 STT (with only minor differences), via Machen and Caerphilly (RR) to Pontypridd(TV). There are no details of any through B&M (or other) trains between the two (Newport & Merthyr) towns over this section, only of B&M between Newport and Machen; Rhymney between Machen and Caerphilly; and Alexandra Dock steam railmotors between Caerphilly and Pontypridd.

The GWR Newport - Merthyr service you mentioned first did not come into being until after the Grouping (probably from 1923 - the service was certainly in force in 1925 with three round trips a day).

Prior to WW1, however, the GWR did run between Newport and Merthyr (four Motor Car round trips a day in 1910) - but via Risca, Hengoed HL, Quakers Yard HL and the joint line - see page 69 in your April 1910 Bradshaw reprint; there were no advertised stops between Risca and Hengoed, so I assume this was via Nine Mile Point and Sirhowy Jn. It was withdrawn during the War - the late evening trip was withdrawn from 22 Feb 1915, the remainder of the service from 22 March 1915 (National Archives RAIL 253/535).

The GWR had been running between Newport and Pontypridd (not Merthyr) via Caerphilly - Bradshaw April 1910 page 67 shows four round trips. They do not seem to have succumbed in the 1915 round of cuts - but had certainly gone (no mention at all) by Bradshaw for November 1920. They were, of course, eventually replaced by the post-1923 Newport - Pontypridd - Merthyr service, above.

[RichardMaund]

I'm curious about the Newport to Merthyr service as it affects the 1920 map on the Circle website. What is the source of the information for this service?

There also appears to be a lack of clarity regarding which services ran between Pontypridd and Newport and when. I'm quoting from H Morgan's South Wales Branch Lines:

In 1917 the GWR withdrew the PC&NR Newport-Pontypridd passenger trains as an economy measure. This service had consisted of four trains a day, calling at Caerphilly only on route over the PC&NR after leaving Machen. The ADR extended its own trips to Machen to compensate - this service superseding the Rhymney Railwa's railmotor between Caerphilly and Machen, which the Rhymney Railway withdrew entirely from 5 May 1919. The GWR reintroduced the through trains in 1923 extending them to Merthyr.

That is entirely commensurate with my recent posting on this topic. Although I can't immediately pin down the "1917" withdrawal date for the GWR Newport - Pontypridd service, I suspect a trawl through National Archives RAIL 271/4 will give the answer. So far as the railmotors ("Motor Cars") are concerned, I can only say that the November 1920 Bradshaw shows Machen - Carerphilly worked by Rhymney (6 round trips) and Caerphilly - Pontypridd worked by ADR (Bradshaw , of course, refer to "Alexandra Newport & South Wales") (9 round trips). It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the ADR were working the Machen section on behalf of the Rhymney - others may be better placed to confirm/refute that.

R.W. Kidner however states that:

The through trains from Newport to Pontypridd called only at Caerphilly, but from 1904 the Alexandra Docks company put on a local service with two steam railcars and erected a number of halts, mostly at rail level.
...

In 1917, as a War economy measure the through trains were taken off, and as the cars did not normally work through to Machen, the Rhymney Railway provided a Caerphilly-Machen service, though it had no statutory powers to do so. These continued until 5th May 1919, by which time the through GWR trains from Newport to Pontypridd had been restored.

That is consistent with Morgan - save for the start date of the GWR Newport - Pontypridd (- Merthyr) service. The November 1920 Bradshaw carries no trace of such service (nor does the July 1922 edition), which clearly did not start until ca. 1923.